Outcomes-based commissioner: Jo Cleary, chair of 4Children
Derren Hayes
Tuesday, June 7, 2016
Derren Hayes talks to Jo Cleary, chair of 4Children.
What attracted you to the role at 4Children?
I started my career working in childcare and then as a teacher. My daughter is also an early years teacher and runs a nursery. The early years world really fascinates me. Working with families and giving children the best start in life is so important.
I am an experienced chair and I enjoy working with chief executives and helping build teams.
How do you think you can best contribute?
At Lambeth Council, I was strategic director of commissioning. I was running a very complex business but for public value – it’s the same for organisations like 4Children.
I have a strong commissioning background, which is really important when you work for a voluntary sector organisation because the nature of it is about working closely with commissioners and building those relationships.
We have to work alongside commissioners and get high quality outcomes at a cost that can sustain a workforce that is underpaid and under resourced. We have to look at what bits we are really good at and do that in a way that can achieve the best possible outcomes for children.
Unfortunately, some councils are so desperate that they are just looking at price, whereas good commissioning is mainly about looking at what outcomes and impact you’re trying to achieve.
How is the funding climate affecting 4Children?
4Children runs a lot of children’s centres and nurseries. It is a challenging time and a hugely difficult funding environment for any organisation in that sector.
I was working in government at the time Sure Start centres were set up, and children’s centres are a legacy of that.
Rather than just cutting them all and letting them wither on the vine, let’s look at their contribution and ask what they could be. It is important we keep that robust infrastructure in place as it is more needed now than ever.
But with government funding reducing, aren’t cuts inevitable?
I understand what local authorities are going through – they are having to make very difficult choices. The only way that they can do that is by working with partners and communities to deliver shared outcomes. I don’t think that’s utopian.
Putting my local authority hat on, the difference between contracting and commissioning is that the former is just the process of procuring the right contract, whereas the latter is about understanding communities.
There are many authorities that are more into the contracting than commissioning side, and if we’re not careful, the contracting decisions [being taken now] will have huge consequences for children’s lives.
What is 4Children doing to counter this?
If we intervene early enough, we can have a huge impact, and 4Children has been very good at making the case for early intervention.
Councils want an evidence base – they want to see a sustainable impact on communities through the services delivered. We have to keep demonstrating that.
It is also about parents and families achieving that understanding nationally and in the local community [of the need for early help] and ensuring people take more responsibility themselves.
Finding ways to collaborate rather than compete is also key. How do we commission in less of a split between commissioners and providers? How do we work with schools already offering nurseries and with academies?
It is about how can we get the best offer into communities and build that alliance with them.
You were chair of The College of Social Work up to its closure. Why did it fail?
I can’t overstate how disappointed I was at the time [of the announced closure]. It was painful.
What makes a strong college is regulation and accreditation functions. We never had that. How can you build a strong college if you don’t have the incentives for social workers? It did incredibly well to get to where it did. When it closed, we made sure that the college’s products went to good homes. It was not insolvent when it closed.
Is there still scope for a national social work college?
We could have done it if the same people who had set up and believed in the college were setting the standards for social work.
I’m still a registered social worker and I don’t want the profession fragmented – it has to come together. My hope is that social work will realise what it has lost and get something that has strong social work values.
JO CLEARY CV
- April 2016 – Chair of 4Childre
- October 2015 – Specially appointed commissioner, Royal Chelsea Hospital
- 2013-15 – Chair, The College of Social Work
- 2012-14 – Chair, National Skills Academy for Social Care
- 2013 – Strategic director, commissioning, Lambeth Council
- 2007 – Executive director, adults and communities, Lambeth Council
- 2005 – Corporate director, housing and community living, Luton Council
- 2003 – Corporate director, housing and social services, Luton Council
- 2003 – Head of policy, Social Services Inspectorate, Department of Health
- 2002 – 2003: Director of social services, Corporation of London (on secondment from DH)
- 1998 – 2002: Assistant chief inspector, Social Services Inspectorate and director of older people & children NHS Regional Office, Londo
- 1990 – 98: Social services inspector, Department of Health